Enoch, the Book
Enoch, Genesis 5:23
The Scroll of Enoch is said, by its defenders, to predate our Savior by 4,000 years. They get this knowledge from the sages of Judaism handed down to the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews – or so it is written. According to these sources, the Sages and the ancient Pharisees, some of whom, if you can believe the Jewish Fables, predate even Adam. Supposedly Adam was given the Jewish traditions and truths, even the “Black Truths”, which does, by the way, include “Black Magic” (more on this later), orally – there was no book when Adam was given the Oral Torah. So, Enoch, comes along some 6 generations after Adam and writes a Book? Apparently Enoch invented printing as opposed to passing his knowledge on in the good old fashion way by word of mouth. It would not have been a book, maybe a scroll? Even then we have no proof that the ancients used anything but stone and clay tablets for writing. Where, then, are these “Tablets of Enoch”? This question is the first of many common sense questions that need to be answered and really are answered by your own God given common sense.
Let’s follow the example of our Savior, when confronted by the Pharisees, Scribes and Lawyers of the First Century, He would questions their position and then demonstrate how foolish they were being, or, how they had misinterpreted the Scriptures. Of course they soon tried to figure out ways to kill Him because they could not answer His sound, and common sense, spiritual and physical reasoning. You know when someone cannot answer common sense they become emotional, excited even, and sometimes violent in plan or action. Certainly, no one likes to be told they are wrong or that they may be deceived and deceiving other, do they?
(2Ti 3:13) But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
We need to stay within the parameters of Scripture as our guide, not some dreamy idea or titillating tale of fantasy – follow the advice of our Apostles and our Messiah.
(Eph 4:14) so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
(Eph 5:6) Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.
(Titus 1:10) For there are also many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped; men who overthrow whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for dishonest gain’s sake.
Believers then and now were being warned about the source from which many of the deceptions originate – “…those of the circumcision”, in other words, the Jews. And this is the source for the Book of Enoch. The old Sages of the Hebrew/Jewish Talmuds, Jerusalem and Babyon, are full of lies and deceptions taught as truth. Fables, we have been warned about --
(Amos 2:4) Thus says YaHWeH: "For three transgressions of Judah, yes, for four, I will not turn away its punishment; because they have rejected YaHWeH's law, and have not kept his statutes, and their lies have led them astray, after which their fathers walked;
Tit 1:14 ...and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.
1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
The following article is an example of how serious the deceived and the deceivers are about protecting the Book of Enoch. This so called Book feed their twisted gospel concerning “fallen angels” and their intermingling with humans. This is a gospel that actually blames the fall of man, not on man, but on these “fallen angels”. By their gospel (good news?) man is not at fault at all, it is the demon angels polluting the purity of mankind. This then leads to saying our Creator is unjust in destroying all of mankind, because man really is innocent of all charges – it is the demon angels that are the problem. This, of course, denies the teaching of our Savior and our Apostles, that “sin” entered the world by one man, Adam.
This article is from an internet response to an “expose” of this false Book. The “defender” express, in the following article, an intelligent defense of the Book of Enoch with faulty thinking and misuse of Scripture but typifies what is being accepted as truth by so many. Here is the internet address exposing this false book for what it is, a book of ‘fables’.
There is a ton of stuff at this website that I do not agree with at all. The amount of material at this site is overwhelming and contains truth mixed with, well, misunderstandings, or lies? But they are not alone, after all, the Christian churches and belief systems of Christianity are as divided as a house can be divided. Much of what this site presents I do not agree with at all, but this independent study by, David Stewart, is very good and informative and from my own investigations proves to be correct in “exposing the book of Enoch” for what it is, a book of fables. We will continue with the “defense of Enoch” as presented in the following article and I will add in my comments in blue font coloring.
Re: The Book of Enoch Exposed:
Defender of the Book of Enoch says: "I’ve been receiving a lot of ignorant comments concerning the book of Enoch from a lot of well-meaning folks out there. A lot of their comments are taken from an article written by the writer of jesus-is-savior.com"
(Want to read it? Go to -- http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/book_of_enoch.htm)
Defender continues: "I am writing this article in order to answer future questions about the book, since doing so on an individual basis seems to be a never ending task.
I will answer the points found in jesus-is-savior.com, but before I do, I will open my defense of Enoch with the following statements: The book of Enoch was written about 4000 years before the birth of Christ and also predates all the books in the bible. Before the Old Testament, people were reading the Book of Enoch.
Servant’s Comment: There is absolutely no evidence for this statement whatsoever. This author is just making noise, he is muttering and chirping (Isa 8:19). It is very noticeable that he cannot give one source to back this false statement up, not one shred of Scripture to support this remark by the Defender, not one source can be quoted from the ancients that they were reading the Book of Enoch that, somehow, survived the Great Flood.
Defender: Point # 1 - The bible says that Enoch walked with God 365 years before God took him alive into heaven. So are we led to believe that such a righteous man lived on earth that long without writing something that would edify future generations?
Servant’s comment: No, it does not say he was taken to Heaven. It says YHWH took him but to where we are not told. Remember, our Savior, YaHshua, said no man in Heaven, only the one that is from Heaven can go to Heaven (John 3:13), Enoch was not from Heaven. Even in the bogus Book of Enoch states that no one knew where Enoch was, only that he could not be found. Hum, wonder who wrote that part of the Book of Enoch (chapter 12 of the Book of Enoch)? Also the narrative of the Book of Enoch speaks of Enoch and tells us about his adventures with the fallen angels, as if someone else is writing about Enoch, it is not Enoch telling the story at all? Also, going by his erroneous assumption that Enoch lived so many years it is only reasonable to assume he must have written many book would then mean we would also expect to have piles of books from Adam and Methuselah who live hundreds of years longer than Enoch. So, where are the books of Adam? The reasoning is faulty.
Defender: Point # 2 - The book of Enoch prophesied of the coming messiah the “Son of man” who would be the Savior of the world. Again, about 4000 years before the birth of Christ
Servant’s Comment: This is a pointless argument. You have to assume without any proof at all that the book of Enoch is dated that far back. This is not a proof of any kind for the validity of the Book of Enoch.
Defender: Point # 3 - The contents of the Book of Enoch validate the bible, before the bible was ever written. When I read this book, it just strengthened my faith in God and the bible.
Servant’s Comment: So, without the Book of Enoch your faith would be lessened? Who needs the Book of Enoch? What purpose does it serve outside of the Scriptures we have? None., Some teaching the false doctrine of Angels taking wives and having giant children us the Book of Enoch to push this doctrine of lies. Why is it a pack of lies? Because by saying this is true is to call our Savior, YaHshua, a liar. YaHshua plainly says that angels are neither male nor female and He also says that when we enter eternity we will be like the angels, neither marrying nor giving in marriage. Those hanging on to the teachings of the Book of Enoch would then be saying our Messiah and Savior is not telling us the truth.
YaHshua says: For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like God’s angels in heaven (Mat 22:30).
Defender: Point # 4 - Now, Peter & Jude both quoted favorably from the Book of Enoch and called Enoch a prophet. That means that if the bible identifies Enoch as a prophet, then we should expect prophesies from that prophet, in the form of writings in which prophecies were recorded in.
Servant’s Comment: Rubbish. Hebrews 11:5, speaks of Enoch finding favor with YHWH through faith and that he was “translated” to some other place, apparently out of harm’s way. Nowhere does it say he was taken to Heaven. Let us take a look at this in the origin of Paul’s remark to the Hebrews –
(Gen 5:24) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
When we look at the word “not” in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary, we find that this means he, Enoch, was no more. In other words, God (YWHW) took Enoch’s life prematurely. The word, “took” some want to translate as “translate” to mean “taken to Heaven”, which cannot be and for very good reason –
(John 3:13) And no man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Again, to say he, the Defender says, Enoch, went to Heaven, this would contradict what our Lord told us about only that which is from heaven can go to Heaven, and He should know. Also, the letter to the Hebrews was written by the Apostle Paul, a man well versed in the writings of the Jews and he makes absolutely no mention of a Book by Enoch. What, no mention, no quote? Oh, yeah, Jude, the book that is but one chapter and makes a one or two mention about something that could be a quote from, ah, say a book of Enoch? We can look at this with our minds tuned to testing every spirit, whether it be an an evil spirit or from man.
1Ti 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
The other place in the New Testament where Enoch is mentioned is in Jude 1:14. What this verse really points out, and is missed by most, is that the Gospel of the Coming of the Kingdom, and the coming of YaHshua as King of Kings was preached to the sons of Adam.
(Jude 1:14) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, “Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints”…,
Again, nowhere is there any mention of a Book of Enoch, least of all a Book used by mankind before the Torah. The Jewish story tellers say that the current Torah is actually a brief part of the Oral Torah. These teachers and many teachers of the false messiah, JESUS (He-Zeus) make up things to cover their view of the false gospel. Jude says nothing more than Enoch, a man that found favor in the eyes of YaHWeH, presented the true Gospel message to the sons of Adam (also called, then, the sons of God), and they eventually so rejected and polluted this message that no one, save Noah, held to the true message of Salvation by the coming of our Lord. Only Noah believed. As mankind rejected the message YaHWeH took Enoch early, putting him to sleep, saving him from what was to come as mankind fell further and further from the truth. Then our Savior, YaHshua, spoke of a time coming, the ‘end-days’ being like the days of Noah. If, then, we are living in those days, or at least days so much closer, then how do you suppose the truth will be handled in these end-days?
Defender: Point # 4 - Enoch was not quoted once, but at least 2 times by different prophets. In the bible, all God’s prophets reaffirm one another. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (Can we say that this is a coincidence that God tells us this verse twice in the bible? – Deuteronomy 19:15, & 2 Corinthians 13:1)
Servant’s Comment: This is an example of using scripture to prove your error. This is a misapplication. For one thing the two witnesses concerning Enoch in the New Testament only proves Enoch existed. There is not one word concerning a Book of Enoch, a book read by the people of God before and after the Great Flood. The witnesses then, prove Enoch lived, just as we are told in the Genesis. Another observation ignored is that there were actually two Enochs.
(Gen 4:17) And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
It would appear that the son of Cain was more famous than the Enoch of Gen 5:24, a city named for him. What then leads the defenders of the Book of Enoch to ignore the Enoch, son of Cain, to say that this Book, if it really ever existed, was not the writings of the Son of Cain? Nothing, absolutely – nothing at all, they just ignore the possibility. If we say this book really did exist (for the sake of argument) prior to the Flood and somehow survived today then who is to say it is not the product of Cain’s son, Enoch? If we consider this, then it is possible the Book of Enoch may have been written by the murderous side of the Linage of Adam, not the righteous side. Again, my friends, common sense rules here. None of this can be proven other than by speculations, day dreams, and assumptions based on more speculations, which I think you will find the rest of the article upon which the Defender of this Book relies, speculations, opinion and repeating what others have said with absolutely no proof.
Defender: Point # 5 - If Enoch walked with God as a righteous man for 365 years as the bible stated, then the man would of have to had been inspired by God to write what he wrote, even more so than those who wrote the Old testament who were not as righteous of the level of Enoch, nor lived as long as Enoch.
Having been given all these points to begin with; I also found that the opening of the book of Enoch begins with explaining that the book is intended for a future & distant generation far off.
I tend to believe, we are that generation.
That would explain the book resurfacing in the 1940′s in the dead sea scrolls, along with many other books from the bible.
Servant’s Comment: More upside down thinking – “other books from the bible…”? Placing this Book on an equal footing as that of the Torah or with the Book of Isaiah? Please, to say that this book existed before the Flood or even before the birth of YaHshua, the Christ is a sham. Just saying it does not make it so, but this is how those who want this book of fables want you to accept it, as proof because they say so. One astute observer noticed that the Book of Enoch seems to be more of a Christian Book than a Jewish book. It is both. Its origin is from the Jewish writings, and adopted by some branches of Christians and Christian teachers.
The Defender of the Book of Enoch reasons in a way that the very thing he quotes, "Enoch walked with God for 365 years..." would have to mean that Enoch was either already in Heaven walking around, side by side, with our Creator, or, by his foolish reasoning, we could also say that Enoch and the God of Heaven were walking, literally, around, two by two. No one interprets it that way, of course, but if we were to follow through on the Defender's style of reasoning then this too should be take literally, not in any kind of spiritual inspriation of conduct.
This Book of Enoch Fables supports the Christian view as opposed to the Jewish view – another tip off this book is actually a modern translation attempting to support some fantastic views held and promoted as doctrine among some Christian groups and teachers. Fact: Only a couple of fragments attributed to the Book of Enoch were discovered at the Dead Sea Scrolls site, not a “book”, not a “scroll”, and nothing proving this to be an accepted writing of Enoch as a Hebrew Book. Two fragments, does not a book make. The following presentation delivers a good collection of sources describing the origins of the Book of Enoch, which, when the truth is known, appears to be a modern invention on the whole, and that before 1912AD it was not a Book at all, at least, from that date back, you cannot find anything other than what we are told and we are supposed to just believe them – whoever them, and they are -- we are just to take their word that this was a Book equal to those of Isaiah and Jeremiah or Ezekiel? See the following site for the list of origins.
Defender: Now, since the book explains the origins of demons and the fall of certain angels that fornicated with women, that also explains, witchcraft, drugs, and our technology and so called UFO and alien sightings. (The book of Enoch says that the fallen angels taught humans these things.)
We actually have an explanation for the Hindu gods, advance civilizations, and so called “aliens from other planets”.
Now, knowing this, and knowing how the churches are being controlled, should we wonder why the main stream churches deny and fight against the book of Enoch?
Servant’s Comments: The fantastic becomes even more fantastic -- striaght out of the Defenders own mind. What a fantastical idea, not a new idea, of course --the Devil made me do it. Defender says it was the rebel angels that were the cause of man’s fall? The devils made me do it, excuse? Sound familiar? So, our Creator, unjustly, destroyed all of mankind for the sins of the fallen angel? This is what they want you to believe? There is another dangerous teaching the Defender mentions here – “…certain angels fornicated with women…”, and where in the Hebrew/Christian Bible does it say that? It does not, unless you twist scripture to mean what you want it to say, and Defender does.
Why is this dangerous? If angels could copulate with women and produce sperm that then spawns obscene half-breeds, a combination of human and spirit angels then what our Heavenly Father did in creating a part of Himself in the form of YaHshua, in the flesh, as a human, means nothing. Think about it, if angels already had this ability to procreate themselves then what our Heavenly Father accomplished has little meaning -- not a miracle of birth at all -- do you see? Also, what our Heavenly Father, by His Own Spirit, was not to create a supernatural half-breed, and certainly not an obscene giant. In fact, anyone that would deny YaHshua came in the “flesh”, totally flesh of a man, not of a god or god mix, is of the Antichrist -- (Read 1 John 4:3). He came in the flesh and not by natural means but as a miracle, formed shaped and formed like clay and then born, as all flesh is born, from woman -- and the Book of Enoch and those defending this Book as scripture would have you believe otherwise -- a doctrine of devils (1 Tim 4:1).
If these story tellers say is the truth then it makes our Lord’s appearance much less a miracle and makes it just an ordinary event amlong angels and demons, lending truth to Babylonian and Greek myth -- the gods they worshiped took wives and had children and plotted to kill each other -- sounds more like men and woman from the past, not angels. The Greeks had their Olympians, gods that fornicated with human women and the Babylonians had their gods that were all too human and others of beasts with the heads of men, all the gods fornication with each other and some finding the temptation of beautiful women just too great to pass up. And the Jews had their tales too, about angels of their god that came down and married human women, producing an offspring of giants, they call the Nephilim. Nepilim, the word, is the Hebrew for giant, simple as that, not for some kind of angelic being or some half human half spirit being. Shades of Hercules, or maybe Superman, or other gods to replace our Lord and Savior, YaHshua.
Defender: Every program we see on TV concerning the book of Enoch, all dismiss it & sway the audiences into not believing in the book. We see the same exact thing in the 501c3 mainstream state churches. People are being taught & conditioned to believe that the book is either fake, or heresy. This is designed to keep people away from learning the truth about fallen angels, demons, & aliens which are closely one of the same.
Servant’s Comment: This is actually just the opposite. Most documentaries present the subject of as fact. The media loves to present the odd and weird as fact, not fiction. Portrayed not as fiction as least as something plausible and more likely than not. Anyone hooked on watching documentaries concerning UFO, Banned Bible Book, Sword of the Cross, the missing Grail, etc., knows these things are not portrayed as stupid deceptions of crazed believers. What does “501c3 church” means? That is the IRS code for tax exemption. The suggestion is that churches are state run or something? This too is not true but and expanded view of the deceived concerning conspiracy theories, which is odd, as the author of Enoch Exposed, by David J. Stewart, is the webmaster of just such things but even he does not buy into the Enoch conspiracy.
Defender: Now, since I have done a lot of reading & a lot of research, I recognize the teachings of the 501c3 church & I know when people are just quoting other people and passing it as facts. This is what this writer from jesus-is-savior.com has done when he echoes exactly what the 501c3 pastors teach in their state churches against Enoch.
Servant’s Comment: This is an old ploy, to blame others for exactly what you are doing yourself. The Defender of the Book of Enoch, like many others that like to use this fallacious work as a source to promote and understanding of Scripture that Scripture does not support, and in the end makes our Savior a liar and down plays or turns the miraculous birth of our Savior into a joke. These false teachers, like the Defender of Enoch is the snake calling everyone else the snake.
Defender responds to David Stewart’s article:
The following are his points from his article, followed by my (Defenders) responses:
Enoch chapter 40:9 “…and the fourth, (angel) who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’
He (David S) argues: We read in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men.
Defender’s response to David S: Enoch does not say that any angel is a mediator between God & men, therefore based on this alone; you cannot say it contradicts the word of God. Enoch is saying that there are angles (set over) meaning “protecting”, “watching over”, helping”, “ministering”, those who’ll received repentance unto hope and are heirs of eternal life.
Now compare Enoch chapter 40:9 reference to Hebrews 1:14, “Are they (angels) not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Angels are set over those who received repentance unto hope who will be heirs of salvation. (Enoch confirms the bible) We know that angels have ranks and leaders over them, such as Michael the archangel. It shouldn’t be difficult to believe that the leader of this type of guarding angels for the saints is called Phanuel.
Servant’s Comment: A good point is made by Defender but stretching to the speculation that the name, Phanuel is really the name of an angel of Heaven is a bit of a stretch. Angels are not Mediators, they are caretakers, and there is a big diffrence. This name Phanuel is found nowhere in Scripture, and you would think it would be if this angel was so important. Apparently Phanuel is not important enough to make it into Scripture. It is more likely this name is made up by the author of the Enoch Fables. What? Are we to assume that the ancients were not capable of writing fiction? Maybe 2,000 years from now someone will dig up the Harry Potter books and use them to prove some outlandish theory about our life today? Speaking about prophetic writings, what about Nostrodamas? His writings are modern, compared to the Book of Enoch, and his writings have been compared to the Bible and to historical events, so why doesn't the Defender of Enoch put forward those writings as Scripture?
Defender quoting David S: ”But the bible doesn’t mention any angel named Phanuel.”
Defenders response: The bible is clear that there are billions of angels as part of God’s creation. Why on earth should we expect the bible to name them all? He further claims that Enoch lie when he mentioned an angel by the name of Phanuel.
Servant’s Comment: The subject is not about all angels but about an angel of such importance. And again, the Defender, like others, assume the Book of Enoch is true beyond a doubt and therefore they speak of Enoch and these fabled writings as fact -- and assumption does not make a truth. Another thing Defender ignores -- The Angel Michael is mentioned in both the Old and New Testament and the Angel Gaberiel is mention in both the Old and the New Testament, but no Phanuel. Another Angei of great authority is also mention, without mentioning other by name, and for good reason -- Oh, the other Angel of great authority? The Devil, called Satan, once known as Lucifer. Still, no Phanuel. Why aren't more legit angels mentioned? For the simple reason men would begin worshiping them, and if they were to have their names the abuse would overwhelm the whole Earth.
I guess Harry Potter is real too and has magical powers. There is more proof Harry Potter was alive and roaming around on adventures that to prove Enoch of Genesis wrote a book and that book was being used before the Scriptures were ever written. Notice the next remark made by the Defender of Enoch, writing as though the Book of Enoch is proven true and reliable and as if Enoch really said these things.
Defender continues: If Enoch wanted to lie and was inspired by Satan, he would have used a name of an angel that everyone is familiar with. Satan knows the names of the angels; why not give Enoch a name that he knew people would buy? (This is further proof that the bible has not been written during this times)
Servant’s Comment: This is “proof”? This is the perfect example of turning fable into truth and hoping you will buy it. After all, the Defender has bought into it, or is a deceiver, and, perhaps, deceived himself as well -- 2 Tim 3:13. Giving him the benefit of doubt, we can only hope that the Defender is not really an agent of, well, of Satan, being deceived himself.
Defender of the Book of Enoch: After all, Satan used the name of Gabriel as the angel who appeared to Mohamed the Islamic prophet. Satan knew that he could not used unfamiliar names from the scriptures in order to convince people into a new religion that resulted in Islam, so Satan took an angel’s name from the Scriptures in order to convince many into a false religion. On the other hand, Enoch is not a new religion, but a tool that validates what’s written in the bible. A lot of secular & atheist sources accuse Christians of circular reasoning because we believe only what’s in the bible. In other words, they claim that we believe the bible to be true because the bible says its truth. They claim this is ridiculous, so I say fine. How about other books outside the bible that points to the bible and validate the bible?
Servant’s Comment: This is faulty reasoning and total speculation without proof. To assume Satan would do the one and not the other is to underestimate the enemy. As for circular thinking this is exactly what the Defenders of the Book of Enoch do, they quote one another and run around in a circle to turn guessing and speculations into their truth. Certainly, other books do do the same thing, as the Defender points out. But by the standards used to prove the Book of Enoch as having its origins in the 6th generation of Adam is far more difficult to prove than the Quran, by far.
Defender: At this point, there’s no further argument from their part. So God has given us other sources outside the bible, in order to validate the bible.
Servant’s Comment: Actually outside sources is not need to validate the Scriptures we believers call the Holy Bible. History proves the Bible truths by the prophetic word. Daniel is a major proof of things foretold and history proving the uncanny accuracy of Daniel, hundreds of years before being proven historically. Of course there are those that do not want to accept the Bible in any kind of historical fashion, but these are non-believers and we should not be so concerned with what they think. The critics used to claim Moses did not know how to write, as recent at the 1950’s, then it was found that people in his time and area did know how to write, so the critics moved on saying King David and Solomon were fictional characters. One day tablets were found by the archeologist that mentioned King David, King of Israel, and later proof that Solomon also existed. Certain, these are outside sources, as Defender points out, but was this need to prove the Bible? Not at all. What about the Flood? The evidence is all around us for a Flood on a worldwide scale. This leads to one of those old saying -- “Too close to the trees to see the forest”. So, do believers believe the Holy Bible or not? Of course they do and as more and more external proofs affirm a believers position to the critics it means nothing, they merely ignore the proofs and move on to the next objection.
Defender Continues: Next point the writer David J. Stewart brings in his article:
Enoch chapter 48:1-3 …before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, His name (The name of the son of man (Jesus) was named before the Lord of Spirits.
He (David) argues: Was the Son of Man named? When was Jesus named in Heaven?
My (Defender’s) response: 1 Peter 1:20 says that Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world.
So if Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world, then what’s the problem with him also being named before the foundation of the world?
I don’t see a problem with Enoch’s statement, but people who oppose Enoch’s writing will make issues of things that are easily reconcilable with Scriptures, & one needs to wonder if there’s a hidden agenda.
Servant’s Comment: Whether David J. Stewart sees this or not, the Defender does not. He, the Defender, does not see that the Name Given to YaHshua was first delivered to Mary and Joseph and we are told in Acts 4:12 that that Name was a name “…found among men…”, it was not a Name found in Heaven. With this knowledge it would be reasonable to say that the meaning and purpose of His mission as Savior would be known, of course, but the actual naming of our Savior did not take place until that moment and given a name that could be found on Earth before His birth, and it is.
Certainly the Name was known before His birth, after all the man that led the people of the Living God into the Promised Land was named YaHshua (Joshua), a name found among men, not among angels, and the name of a man Leading the People of God into the Kingdom. Okay, so you could argue that He came in the Father’s Name, true, and also true that the Name of the Father has existed from the Beginning -- that Name would be a name that has always existed somewhere on this Earth – but look, this is also a name among men, so the Name of our Heavenly Father and our Savior has never been a secret. One thing is certain, that name is not JESUS, which, ironically is pronounced as HeyZeus, by much of the world. The English speaking people as pronounce this false name as GeeZus, nowhere near the Name He was given at birth. This is one of the greatest deceptions of all time (Yes, I am repeating and will keep repeating this truth).
The Name JESUS has only been around for about 400 years. The Name of our Savior dates back to the Times of Moses. YaHshua means, YaH is Savior, or YaH is Salvation (Some say, YaHushua, the same really). This Name declares the identity of our Creator while the false name, JESUS, declares Zeus, and Zeus is too known as the healer. Something wrong with that, don’t you think?
Defender of the Book of Enoch: Enoch chapter 69:8-12 -- on the earth from that day and for evermore. And the fourth was named Penemue: he taught the 9 children of men the bitter and the sweet, and he taught them all the secrets of their wisdom. And he instructed mankind in writing with ink and paper, and thereby many sinned from eternity to 10 eternity and until this day. For men were not created for such a purpose, to give confirmation 11 to their good faith with pen and ink. For men were created exactly like the angels, to the intent that they should continue pure and righteous, and death, which destroys everything, could not have taken hold of them, but through this their knowledge they are perishing, and through this power 12 it is consuming me. And the fifth was named Kasdeja: this is he who showed the children of men all the wicked smitings of spirits and demons, and the smitings of the embryo in the womb,
David J. Stewart argues: What … man’s wisdom came from a demon named Penemue? That’s crazy! Did ink and paper cause the fall of the human race? Whoa ..
Defender response to David S.: Again, misinterpreting what the text actually says. The texts says that the fallen angel Penemue, not a demon, taught them all the secrets of their (fallen angels’) wisdom, not that men’s wisdom came from them, but fallen angelic wisdom came from them.
Servant’s Comment: Remember the biblical account of the Tree of Knowledge, of both “good and evil”? Here in the Book of Enoch it is discovered that it was anglic knowledge given by this good angel to men that corrupted man. The Defender uses logic that is, well, stupid, or deliberately misleading. Reread the Enoch verses quoted and you can see clearly that record keeping or writing of any kind is seen as corrupting and that that was given to me by this angel called Penemue. You see, according to the Defender and others, it was those damned angels that cause the fall of man. By this view, as stated before, we can see the unjust actions of the Creator God in killing off all mankind. Making man pay for what the angels did? Something smells in the Defender’s defense.
Defender: They (those exposing the Book of Enoch as a fraud) continue to argue: It was Adam’s sin that brought sin into the world (Romans 5:12); not evil literature.
David S. response: Enoch does not mentioned at all that sin came because of these fallen angels, he is simply explaining how the fallen angels perverted further the human race by teaching them things that were ahead of their times, that alone is wicked in the eyes of God because they were intervening and mingling themselves with mankind. We can also see in chapter 69:12 which jesussaves.com conveniently left out, we can see these fallen angels were already teaching mankind how to do abortions. This adds even more credibility to the book of Enoch.
Servant’s Comment: And how does this lead to the “credibility of the book”? The reasoning passes over me, maybe the thinking is too deep or perhaps to infantile to be understood as reasonable? Angels, fallen angels, teach mankind how to improve their sinful way to become more sinful so God destroys all mankind, save Noah because the fallen angels are teaching men to be violent and how to write? Defender’s logic seems to border on the ridiculous. I understand the Defender believes the Book of Enoch to be true but this does not make this book of fable true. Many people believe lies and are fooled everyday by liars of all sorts and we are just supposed to believe Defender of the Book of Enoch, and his supporters, because he says so?
Defender: He (David S.) continues with: Enoch chapter 1:9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgment upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
He (David) argues: “There is no Biblical record of a “Book of Enoch.” There is NO doubt that Enoch made these statements as Jude 1:14 confirms; but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he authored the entire Book of Enoch (or ANY of it for that matter). It’s a question of who copied who? “
Defender: response: That’s a weak argument, because if Jude was quoting from Enoch who lived 4000 years before him, we can safely assume that he quoted from text. We can safely assume this, because Peter also refers from Enoch on 2 Peter 2:4 which reads: “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment”
Jude chapter 6 also makes references to the imprisonment of these fallen angels in chains of darkness, reserved for judgment day. All these are references to Enoch, which tells us the same thing, about these particular fallen angels which were bound in chains of darkness for their sin and were reserved for judgment.
We also know from the bible that 1/3 of Satan’s angel were cast into the earth, not into chains of darkness in hell. So the bible itself tells us about 2 distinct & separate groups of fallen angels. Those who sinned with women; and those who fell with Satan during his rebellion.
So are we led to believe that Jude & Peter are quoting from nonexistence sources?
Servant’s Comment: This is the Defender of the Book of Enoch best defense yet. It all seems very reasonable and even makes sense. But notice how Defender throws the bit about angels sinning with women, you know, angels committing fornication with flesh and blood women. Scriptures, however tells us this is not possible. The following is the principle establishing the order of things.
(1Co 15:38-40) But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
Angels are of a different “kind” than flesh and blood man, there is no mingling. It is a false teaching that says otherwise – even our Messiah told us about this. Re-read Genesis 6:1-4 and you will notice, the ‘sons of God’, assumed to be angels by the Book of Enoch crowd, “marry women”? Angels engage in human marriage? That is a lawful thing to do but these are supposed to be rebellious angels, against the God of all Creation, the God that made male and female (the flesh kind) to be one in marriage. Are we to assume the fallen angels liked this idea of marriage? Peter and Jude’s remarks are so small in comparison to the totality of the Book of Enoch claimed to be from pre-flood Enoch as to be no proof of the book at all. The Jewish writings and oral traditions have been around for thousands of years and to take two or three small quotes from them and then say it is proof of a separate book is silly. I see the logic, but it is too shallow to support a whole Book the size of the Book of Enoch. When you read the Book of Enoch, if you have one, you will see it is more from a popular Christian view than from that of the Jewish view. What Peter and Jude quote appears to be from Jewish writings they happen to agree with but these are in no way said to be from a particular “book”.
Defender: Then, they argue that is a matter of who copy who. Let’s see, Jude quotes Enoch, but they want us to believe that someone who claimed to be Enoch wrote a book after Jude, to confirm what Jude wrote?
Not to mention that the book of Enoch has been dated to prior the days of the Old Testament, so how can one from the past copy one from the future, unless they believe in time machines before believing what Enoch wrote.
Servant’s Comment: This is not entirely true. Certain parts of the claimed Enoch writings were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls written in Aramaic, not Hebrew. The dating for these fragments, as best guess is no further back than 300 BC and these fragments do not in any way represent the complete writings of what is called the Book of Enoch today. Much of the writing in this Modern creation are said to have been composed sometime after the first century AD. For more on this go to Wikipedia -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_enoch
For unknown authors to compose something they imagine and place references from the Holy Bible within their work does not make their work, or writings, older than their source. For example, as you will read in Wikipedia reference, Jude quotes what came to be called reference to the writings of Enoch but this quote can also be found in Deut 33:2 of the Holy Bible and may be the source for the unknown author whose small work is attributed to Enoch. If I quote Dan Brown, for example, of the Angels and Demons work and the part I quote is an observation Dan Brown makes while he himself quotes Scripture then that part of his work may be true and aligns with the Holy Bible as he is paraphrasing Scripture. By quoting or agreeing with Dan Brown’s comments in his writing I would not then be putting my stamp of approval on everything Dan Brown then writes. This happens all the time in modern circles, one author quotes another and many times adds that they are only agree with this one thing while the rest of the work, from that quoted, is said to be in disagreement with everyone and everything else. I and others have done this very thing.
Defender of the Book of Enoch: They go on with: Enoch chapter 7:12-15, “Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;
He (David Stewart) argues: A “cubit” is 1.5 feet. The ark which Noah built was 300 cubits long (Genesis 6:15). Do you mean to tell me that some women had , children who were as tall as the ark was long?
Defenders response: We need to understand that women were giving birth to what appeared to be normal children, but because of the mutation in their DNA, these children grew up to be of enormous status.
(Keep also in mind that the cubit measurement pre-flood and post flood has also changed) – Nevertheless, these were enormous gigantic creatures.
Servant’s Comment: I can hardly contain myself – is the Defender really going to go there? The Cubit has changed? A long cubit has been identified as 21” and a short cubit (the change) as 17”, both of which, it seems the ancients used. The Cubit David Stewart used in his reasonable observation was the short cubit, 1.5’ or 17”, so he is thinking on the conservative side. According to the fantasy Book of Enoch, the giant children of these fantasy angels began to eat everything in sight, you know, being giants and all, with these huge appetites making it impossible for their human slaves to satisfy them. As the Book of Enoch tells us, spawn of fallen angels began to eat men, so this is why our Creator had to destroy the earth.
To believe this fable is to believe the tale of Jack and the Bean stalk is true too. These giants would have been 425 to 450 feet tall and the Defender of the Book of Enoch wants you to believe, all things are possible, but according to the physical world, the world we live in and on this is not possible -- gravity alone would turn such creatures into a bloody pudding -- the weight by gravity would literally have crushed them. Maybe all things are possible with our Creator but in the world of men, in the world of the physical all things this absurd notion is not possible. Giant people of that stature would be incapacitated by their sheer size and would not survive their own weight -- in fact they could never have gotten to even half that size.
Defender of the Fable of the Giants says: Having said that, we need to understand that God is bigger than the universe in which he created, so it makes perfectly sense that his original sons, (these angels) were of enormous height as well.
The bible tells us that these angels can take any form including the form of a man. So I would not be surprised if they appeared as regular men to the women they co-mingled themselves with, and end up having giants as offspring, because that’s part of their DNA. How these angels appeared to be, does not have anything to do with their DNA markings; thus they passed their gigantic status to their offspring.
Servant’s Comment: Now the Defender is telling us angels of God have DNA, in credible. His reasoning is so stupid it is laughable. I find no need to even respond to this last comment. As I said before, this Defender is either a deceiver or totally deceived himself.
Defender continues: So if Enoch tells us that these giants were 450 feet in height that would definitely qualify it to be called a giant. 9-12 feet tall is just that, tall.
So it’s very possible that during the pre-flood era God had to destroy everything contaminated with these giants in order to preserve not only the earth, but mankind.
Now, having hybrids of 450 feet in height can definitely explain the ancient pyramids, which one block alone has an average weight of 2.5 tons.
A few individuals of this status wouldn’t have had any problems building something like the pyramids, Stonehenge, the Great Wall of China, or any of the gigantic statues found in eastern island. Now, since the bible tell us that there were giants also after the flood, we need to ask ourselves why in the book of Joshua, the people described themselves as grasshoppers in comparison to the giants?
Servant’s Comment: The Great Wall of China? Really? This upside down reasoning by the Defender of the Book of Enoch is to weird and hard to respond to. Common sense logic tells you how wrong this defending of this book of fables is. The more the Defender tries to defend the Book of Enoch the dumber and dumber it gets. I know, we are not supposed to call people stupid and dumb, then again, maybe more of us should break that rule and expose those stupid enough to think we are stupid enough to believe their fables and fantasies, all under the disguise of being religious – in credible.
(Eph 5:11) Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
(2Ti 3:13) … while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
(1Ti 4:1-2) The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
(Mat 24:11) and many false prophets(teachers) will appear and deceive many people.
(Rom 16:17-18) I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord the Christ, but their own appetites (lusts). By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naïve people.
These and other verses of instructions from our Savior, YaHshua and His Apostles tell us the right way to go and it is not into the fantasy world of teachers raised on video games and Sci-Fi movies trying to rewrite Biblical History.
Defender Continues: If these giants would have been as tall as Enoch described them to be, I would say that, that would definitely make a normal human look like a grass hopper in comparison.
Servant’s Comment: Defender is referencing the spies that went into the land of the Philistines and came back and exaggerated about the stature of the people living there. Only Joshua and Caleb told the truth. Because of this Israel was returned to the desert to live for a full generation because the people were afraid to move into the land YaHWeH had given them. 40 years later all of that generation had died, except for Joshua (YaHshua and Caleb. Joshua (YaHshua) then led the people into the land of these giants only to find they were not giants after all and under the command of Joshua (YaHshua) they defeated the Philistines and the Canaanites and there is not record of having to deal with anything resembling a giant until well after Israel was established in the land, and then it was only on family and the maximum height that we are given for these giants was 10 feet, nowhere near 450 feet. This is a very poor defense when we let common sense rule. Maybe in the 40 years Israel wandered the desert country the 450 foot giants got on space ships and flew off to a different galaxy, far, far away? Hey, the Defender is not the only one that can fantaze.
Defender Continues his fantasy: I will also like to add, that Enoch mentions these giants sinning against the animals. We know in the bible that God ordered everything after its own kind, but in the book of Enoch we learn something that men is currently doing in our time, which is the splicing of different species.
Servant’s Comment: Here is some more dreaming and made up stuff. Yes, science is involved in cloning, but this is still after its kind. The thing men have done in attempting to combine different species has failed, they have not made combined two different “kind” and made something else, like a half man and dog. Even if men were successful in doing such a thing it does not mean there were Giant sons of angels, 450 tall roaming the Earth. Imagine, a football field is 300 feet in length, these Giants of Enoch were half again that length. Again, they would have been too big to function, even the dinosaurs would have been small compared to them. A fable, pure and simple.
Defender Continues: Since Enoch explains that these giants were doing these things back then; that could definitely explain the existence of the dinosaurs which were also gigantic creatures.
Servant’s Comment: Here is a good example of jumping to conclusions from a previous speculation and turning it into fact. This is a trick the evolutionist use in trying to prove their case for the evolution of species. First you make a suggestion, then say it must be true and so if it is true then this or that is true too – when it is all based on a speculation. Defender points out that the Giants were sinning against animals and turns this into “genetic DNA coding”? No, what the fabled Book tell us is that the Giants began eating all of the animals, just like in a fairy tale book.
Defender Continues: The bible tells us that God had to destroy even the animals, but we also see that he preserved certain animals. I then submit that God only preserved his creation, & killed the dinosaurs with the flood as science now confirms.
The Giants made the dinosaurs? And where does it say that?
Defender continues with More Speculations and Fantasy: Jesus then warns us that conditions prior to his return will resemble to those during Noah’s times. We can see that with the age of DNA manipulation & secret underground DNA black projects, Jesus assumed that we would know the things spoken in the book of Enoch, in order to discern the times.
The writer of Jesussaves.com (David J. Stewart) who wrote the anti Enoch article also states that a horse cannot interbreed with a fish.
This same knowledge the fallen angels had in order to mingle themselves with the seed of men. The knowledge was then passed to their offspring the giants, and they continue their wickedness interbreeding animals, resulting in what we came to know as mythological creatures.
Servant’s Comments: Again with the over the top speculations and adding to the fabled story of Enoch. The Defender is adding to the Enoch tale with wild assumptions as to what our Savior may or may not have thought. One thing is certain, YaHshua, our Savior did not quote Enoch. Yes, a couple of Apostles did to make a point, but they made no reference to any Giants and only referenced material agreeing with Scripture already written. The Book of Enoch is actually a combination of short books from different origins and questionable authors -- in fact, the author is not known. Some of these books (chapters) are dated around 1100 AD, nowhere near the pre-flood date the Defenders of the Book of Enoch want you and me to believe.
Defender talking: If we are led to believe as the writer of jesussaves.com want us to believe, that would leave us with more questions than answers. But if we applied the bible with what Enoch tells us, then that answers a lot of question concerning things that the world just classifies as mysteries or mythology.
Usually the people who are anti Enoch, they all happened to belong to a 501c3 church organization, which are nothing more than corporations of the government, meaning “state controlled churches” & this is where they get their limited knowledge from.
Servant’s Comments: This is so much dribble and nonsense as the Defender sees a conspiracy no one else sees. Just saying it does not make it so. Government controlled Churches? Okay, which ones, all of them, all of the tax exempt churches are actually controlled by our anti-religious Federal Government? In America you can say anything you want, but in the coming Kingdom of our Savior every man will be held accountable for every carless word that comes out of the mouth.
(Mat 12:36) But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.
It is not I that judge the Defender or any defenders of the Book of Enoch and other apocryphal material who say things without proof, things contrary to the Word of God, no, it is the Word of our Lord that does the judging, I am merely the messenger quoting our Lord’s words, not mine.
Defender, more careless words: State controlled churches have a government agenda, and they want to control what you believe & what they don’t want you to believe.
Although a lot of state churches speak a lot of truth, we need to understand that poison is composed of 99% nutritional value and just 1% toxic. We all know that the 1% is the one responsible for doing the killing found in the poison.
That’s why Jesus said that a little leaven leavened the whole lump.
Servant’s Comment: This is an old trick, the pot calling the kettle black, or accusing others of the sin you are guilty of. By reversing the accusations that should be applied to the self, instead accusing others of your sin. This is a self-righteous approach.
Defender: This is why I don’t trust 501c3 state churches who sold the flock of Jesus in exchange of tax write offs, & who also trade it the headship of Jesus, for that of the state.
I am saying this because #1 is the truth, and because I see a lot of people who go by whatever these 501c3 pastors say, and they pass it as truth.
The bible tells us that it would be the Holy Spirit who will guide us & teach us all things. If we let 501c3 government agents teach us instead, they will lead us astray.
Either on purpose, or out of ignorance, but astray we will go nevertheless if we listen to these people who have sold out for a few bucks in their income tax return.
Having said all that, some may argue. If God wanted the book of Enoch in the bible it would have been in the bible.
The fact is that it used to be part of the bible and God did use wicked evil people to remove it from it, doing his will & fulfilling prophesy, because after all Enoch prophesied that the book was intended for a future, far, & distant generation. So God himself hid the book until the appointed time. We can see God doing the same thing in the book of Daniel, when he asks Daniel through an angel to seal certain things until the time of the end. Daniel 12:9
Servant’s Comment: “The fact is that it (Book of Enoch) used to be part of the Bible”? This is an outright lie. This book nor any part of it was ever part of or compiled as part of the Hebrew Bible by either the Jews/Hebrew or Christians of any century. The argument for the myth tellers and fable adherents is that this Book of fantasy was part of Jewish mysticism from before Moses. They say this with no proof whatsoever, only the Jews of the mystical side of Judaism saying so. This is actually the source of the collection of writings that became called the Book of Enoch around 1100 AD and accepted by the Jewish church of Ethiopia as true. Now some misdirected Christians are latching on to it for reasons of their own. Everyone loves a good fantasy, I guess, but to call a fantasy, a made up story (fiction) true is another thing, indeed.
(2Pe 2:2-3) Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
When these story tellers stand before our Lord they are going to have a lot of explaining to do. It is not small thing to make things up, or to promote tall tales as fact because some people like to hear such fantasies.
Defender: This is my defense for the Book of Enoch and everything around us makes more sense with it, than without it because it fills the gaps that the bible leave us with.
It’s like a piece of a puzzle was taken out from the bible, and when you put it back, suddenly it all makes sense.
Servant’s Comment: The supposed holes are filled by the present Bible today, we have not need of a fantasy book which, by the way, was rejected by the composers of the Hebrew Scriptures, we call the Holy Bible and rejected by the inspired canon we know as the New Testament, Christian writings.
If you take the time to study the Holy Bible you will see this, a little here and a little there, as the holes are filled by the Scriptures explaining themselves. Something’s we are meant to know, other things are for the future unveiling at the return of our Lord, YaHshua. Many things the Defender thinks are filled in by the False Book of Enoch are the product of men making things up and most have no place in the Salvation plan.
The great harm in believing these fables is that it destroys the coming of our Lord the first time, in the Flesh. And it makes our Savior out to be a liar, when He tells us that angels are neither male nor female, and that they do not marry. Yet, the defenders of the Book of Enoch insist the book is true in that angels did marry human women and had sex with them as they posed as men. This makes the coming of our Lord in the flesh, as a man, no big deal, angels have been doing this all along. This is ludicrous and borders on true blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.
The Book of Enoch, as presented today, is an apocryphal work from several unknown authors – please read the history of this work of fantasy at -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_enoch -- and see for yourself this work does have an origin and it is not from 6,000 years ago. Another site listing a string of comments and discoveries concerning this work of Fantasy is -- http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm -- and, of course, the source by David J. Stewart: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/book_of_enoch.htm
(Mat 22:30) At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. (YaHshua speaking)
(Gal 1:8-9) But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Some teach the gospel of angels as opposed to the Gospel of the coming Kingdom – the coming of our Lord YaHshua as King of Kings. The Book of Enoch, in the light of this, means nothing.